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	<title>Comments on: Fantasy/Sci-Fi MMO Steelcage Deathmatch</title>
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	<link>http://potshot.wordpress.com/2007/08/04/fantasysci-fi-mmo-steelcage-deathmatch/</link>
	<description>Perspectives on online gaming</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 17:17:29 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: sterroneous</title>
		<link>http://potshot.wordpress.com/2007/08/04/fantasysci-fi-mmo-steelcage-deathmatch/#comment-236</link>
		<dc:creator>sterroneous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Aug 2007 06:51:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://potshot.wordpress.com/2007/08/04/fantasysci-fi-mmo-steelcage-deathmatch/#comment-236</guid>
		<description>Could it be that the lack of a pop-SF MMO is at least partially a function of the influence table-top RPGs appeared to have over heart of the MMO industry?

My impression is that Dungeons and Dragons still has an enormous mind-share, closely followed by things like the World of Darkness setting. Sci-fi role-playing environments seem to have a lesser following. Is that simple momentum on the part of the DandD juggernaut? Perhaps, though the relatively quick rise of dark horror tabletop games suggests otherwise. Perhaps we should be asking "Where are all the dark, personal horror MMOs?"

I suspect current-gen game mechanics may also play a part. SF-friendly gamers coming into MMOs are probably accustomed to first person shooters, and the  twitch-based fast-paced high-damage world that often comes with them. Despite all the beautiful lore in the current MMOs, their primary focus of minute-to-minute activity still seems to be kill-ten-rats. In a science-fictional combat world, killing is easy and damage is item-focussed. A thirty second knife standing sword fight with wandering scoundrel can be credible. To be "credible" a confrontation between two characters equipped with impersonal gun-type weapons should end quickly and messily, unless we provide a prop such as gun-kata or the Matrix's beyond-the-surreal moves or extend the action.

Tabula Rasa appears to have attempt some remedies for this issue but it verdict on whether they are innovative additions to the MMO toolbox or uncomfortable compromises that please no-one seems mixed. Providing immersive character-based science-fiction combat while avoiding twitch-based game mechanics is, I suggest, a difficult problem. &lt;i&gt;EVE-O&lt;/i&gt; dodges the issue by sticking with space ships, and making no pretense that frigates are anything but crunchy...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Could it be that the lack of a pop-SF MMO is at least partially a function of the influence table-top RPGs appeared to have over heart of the MMO industry?</p>
<p>My impression is that Dungeons and Dragons still has an enormous mind-share, closely followed by things like the World of Darkness setting. Sci-fi role-playing environments seem to have a lesser following. Is that simple momentum on the part of the DandD juggernaut? Perhaps, though the relatively quick rise of dark horror tabletop games suggests otherwise. Perhaps we should be asking &#8220;Where are all the dark, personal horror MMOs?&#8221;</p>
<p>I suspect current-gen game mechanics may also play a part. SF-friendly gamers coming into MMOs are probably accustomed to first person shooters, and the  twitch-based fast-paced high-damage world that often comes with them. Despite all the beautiful lore in the current MMOs, their primary focus of minute-to-minute activity still seems to be kill-ten-rats. In a science-fictional combat world, killing is easy and damage is item-focussed. A thirty second knife standing sword fight with wandering scoundrel can be credible. To be &#8220;credible&#8221; a confrontation between two characters equipped with impersonal gun-type weapons should end quickly and messily, unless we provide a prop such as gun-kata or the Matrix&#8217;s beyond-the-surreal moves or extend the action.</p>
<p>Tabula Rasa appears to have attempt some remedies for this issue but it verdict on whether they are innovative additions to the MMO toolbox or uncomfortable compromises that please no-one seems mixed. Providing immersive character-based science-fiction combat while avoiding twitch-based game mechanics is, I suggest, a difficult problem. <i>EVE-O</i> dodges the issue by sticking with space ships, and making no pretense that frigates are anything but crunchy&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: p@tsh@t</title>
		<link>http://potshot.wordpress.com/2007/08/04/fantasysci-fi-mmo-steelcage-deathmatch/#comment-235</link>
		<dc:creator>p@tsh@t</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Aug 2007 06:07:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://potshot.wordpress.com/2007/08/04/fantasysci-fi-mmo-steelcage-deathmatch/#comment-235</guid>
		<description>I'm not too encouraged by what I've heard about &lt;em&gt;Tabula Rasa&lt;/em&gt; so far, though that is admittedly slim.  Maybe my bias, but when I hear "FPS" my eyes glaze over.  Not that there's anything wrong with the genre, god knows I've played enough and enjoyed it thoroughly, but I'm afraid it wont feel like a true MMO.

I am looking forward to &lt;em&gt;STO &lt;/em&gt;and hope to see it in my lifetime.  Perpetual seems to be taking their sweet time.

While &lt;em&gt;Star Wars&lt;/em&gt; had that mythic quality to it (call it SF/Fantasy mixed, i agree), &lt;em&gt;Star Trek&lt;/em&gt; definitely was more on the "future" side of the scale but not so far on the "technical" side of your spiritual/technical continuum, rather our heroes ended up exploring their own natures when juxtaposed against those of an alien society.  To me, that's a bit more of a spiritual exploration of the human condition rather than spending half an episode on what exactly a Jeffries Tube is.  Not the same as Luke in the Swamp, but still human in nature rather than technological.

Somehow, this exploration of the human condition nearly always involved Kirk getting to know the ladies for some reason.  Stewart should have hired Shatner's agent... 

Regardless, the ensemble cast of interesting archetypes (with necessary interdependencies) made for broad parallel story telling over time.  Seems that's exactly the recipe for a successful MMO.  Likewise, I think &lt;em&gt;Firefly &lt;/em&gt;has the same potential as would BG or even SG.

While I think players in MMOs need to feel the promise of Lake Wobegon (where all players are above average), an MMO based on an IP that is focused too much on an elite may fail for want of either creating a compelling hero (read: above average) experience or for failing to provide the elite experience.  This may be where SWG and LotRO are most vulnerable.  There weren't a lot of Jedi but everyone wanted to be one.  Nor were there armies of Istari, but everyone wants to be Gandalf.

This is where IPs like &lt;em&gt;Star Trek&lt;/em&gt;, &lt;em&gt;Battlestar Galactica&lt;/em&gt; or &lt;em&gt;Firefly &lt;/em&gt;(or something fashioned in their ilk) could truly excel.   Every noob Star Fleet officer could become (or at least dream of becoming) a Kirk or Picard or Janeway, Sisco or Archer (or for that matter a Khan or Chang or Borg Queen or...) and because there were many captains and admirals (not just a few Princesses or Jedi Knights) the canon can be preserved.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not too encouraged by what I&#8217;ve heard about <em>Tabula Rasa</em> so far, though that is admittedly slim.  Maybe my bias, but when I hear &#8220;FPS&#8221; my eyes glaze over.  Not that there&#8217;s anything wrong with the genre, god knows I&#8217;ve played enough and enjoyed it thoroughly, but I&#8217;m afraid it wont feel like a true MMO.</p>
<p>I am looking forward to <em>STO </em>and hope to see it in my lifetime.  Perpetual seems to be taking their sweet time.</p>
<p>While <em>Star Wars</em> had that mythic quality to it (call it SF/Fantasy mixed, i agree), <em>Star Trek</em> definitely was more on the &#8220;future&#8221; side of the scale but not so far on the &#8220;technical&#8221; side of your spiritual/technical continuum, rather our heroes ended up exploring their own natures when juxtaposed against those of an alien society.  To me, that&#8217;s a bit more of a spiritual exploration of the human condition rather than spending half an episode on what exactly a Jeffries Tube is.  Not the same as Luke in the Swamp, but still human in nature rather than technological.</p>
<p>Somehow, this exploration of the human condition nearly always involved Kirk getting to know the ladies for some reason.  Stewart should have hired Shatner&#8217;s agent&#8230; </p>
<p>Regardless, the ensemble cast of interesting archetypes (with necessary interdependencies) made for broad parallel story telling over time.  Seems that&#8217;s exactly the recipe for a successful MMO.  Likewise, I think <em>Firefly </em>has the same potential as would BG or even SG.</p>
<p>While I think players in MMOs need to feel the promise of Lake Wobegon (where all players are above average), an MMO based on an IP that is focused too much on an elite may fail for want of either creating a compelling hero (read: above average) experience or for failing to provide the elite experience.  This may be where SWG and LotRO are most vulnerable.  There weren&#8217;t a lot of Jedi but everyone wanted to be one.  Nor were there armies of Istari, but everyone wants to be Gandalf.</p>
<p>This is where IPs like <em>Star Trek</em>, <em>Battlestar Galactica</em> or <em>Firefly </em>(or something fashioned in their ilk) could truly excel.   Every noob Star Fleet officer could become (or at least dream of becoming) a Kirk or Picard or Janeway, Sisco or Archer (or for that matter a Khan or Chang or Borg Queen or&#8230;) and because there were many captains and admirals (not just a few Princesses or Jedi Knights) the canon can be preserved.</p>
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		<title>By: hallower</title>
		<link>http://potshot.wordpress.com/2007/08/04/fantasysci-fi-mmo-steelcage-deathmatch/#comment-234</link>
		<dc:creator>hallower</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Aug 2007 02:36:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://potshot.wordpress.com/2007/08/04/fantasysci-fi-mmo-steelcage-deathmatch/#comment-234</guid>
		<description>I've always thought of &lt;i&gt;Star Wars&lt;/i&gt; as a mix of sci-fi and fantasy. 

For one, there's the occasional focus on monsters and wilderness. Second, as Talyn points out, it's set "long ago". Lucas wrote the story after reading a theory about a common structure among mythologies, and &lt;i&gt;Star Wars&lt;/i&gt; is really a kind of myth. You could use mythology to explain future events, but myths are more often an allegorical way of explaining the past and present. And &lt;i&gt;Star Wars&lt;/i&gt; falls more into the fantasy pattern I mentioned of characters responding to adventure, rather than shaping it.

Anyway, I agree that the success of &lt;i&gt;Star Wars&lt;/i&gt; lies mainly in its focus on characters and personal growth.

&lt;i&gt;Eve Online&lt;/i&gt; is pretty cool, though I haven't logged into my free trial much. It's a little slow for me. Maybe &lt;i&gt;Tabula Rasa&lt;/i&gt; will surprise me, but the only sci-fi games that really have me excited right now are non-MMOs: &lt;i&gt;Mass Effect&lt;/i&gt; and &lt;/i&gt;Too Human&lt;/i&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve always thought of <i>Star Wars</i> as a mix of sci-fi and fantasy. </p>
<p>For one, there&#8217;s the occasional focus on monsters and wilderness. Second, as Talyn points out, it&#8217;s set &#8220;long ago&#8221;. Lucas wrote the story after reading a theory about a common structure among mythologies, and <i>Star Wars</i> is really a kind of myth. You could use mythology to explain future events, but myths are more often an allegorical way of explaining the past and present. And <i>Star Wars</i> falls more into the fantasy pattern I mentioned of characters responding to adventure, rather than shaping it.</p>
<p>Anyway, I agree that the success of <i>Star Wars</i> lies mainly in its focus on characters and personal growth.</p>
<p><i>Eve Online</i> is pretty cool, though I haven&#8217;t logged into my free trial much. It&#8217;s a little slow for me. Maybe <i>Tabula Rasa</i> will surprise me, but the only sci-fi games that really have me excited right now are non-MMOs: <i>Mass Effect</i> and Too Human.</p>
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		<title>By: Wilhelm2451</title>
		<link>http://potshot.wordpress.com/2007/08/04/fantasysci-fi-mmo-steelcage-deathmatch/#comment-233</link>
		<dc:creator>Wilhelm2451</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Aug 2007 21:31:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://potshot.wordpress.com/2007/08/04/fantasysci-fi-mmo-steelcage-deathmatch/#comment-233</guid>
		<description>"Star Wars leaves as many things unquestioned as LOTR. Not many fans question (during the movie) warp speed..."

Yes and no on that Hallower.  I remember the great "Kessel Run" brouhaha, where Lucas used "parsec" like a measurement of speed rather than distance.  Then he had to back fill with an elaborate description of how space travel in the Star Wars universe is must avoid stellar objects so that straight line travel is impossible, thus a measure of travel efficiency is actual linear distance travelled.  Even Star Wars, as light on description as it is, managed to step off the path.

In most games we are willing to suspend our disbelief so long as an internal constituency is followed.  It is easier, in my mind, to maintain that consistency with swords and sorcery than it is with hard science fiction.  There are too many physics majors out there eager to prove, for example, that Ringworld is unstable and needs attitude jets to maintain its position.

But I get that at which you are digging and agree otherwise.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Star Wars leaves as many things unquestioned as LOTR. Not many fans question (during the movie) warp speed&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>Yes and no on that Hallower.  I remember the great &#8220;Kessel Run&#8221; brouhaha, where Lucas used &#8220;parsec&#8221; like a measurement of speed rather than distance.  Then he had to back fill with an elaborate description of how space travel in the Star Wars universe is must avoid stellar objects so that straight line travel is impossible, thus a measure of travel efficiency is actual linear distance travelled.  Even Star Wars, as light on description as it is, managed to step off the path.</p>
<p>In most games we are willing to suspend our disbelief so long as an internal constituency is followed.  It is easier, in my mind, to maintain that consistency with swords and sorcery than it is with hard science fiction.  There are too many physics majors out there eager to prove, for example, that Ringworld is unstable and needs attitude jets to maintain its position.</p>
<p>But I get that at which you are digging and agree otherwise.</p>
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		<title>By: p@tsh@t</title>
		<link>http://potshot.wordpress.com/2007/08/04/fantasysci-fi-mmo-steelcage-deathmatch/#comment-232</link>
		<dc:creator>p@tsh@t</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Aug 2007 20:45:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://potshot.wordpress.com/2007/08/04/fantasysci-fi-mmo-steelcage-deathmatch/#comment-232</guid>
		<description>Great comment Hallower.  I like past/future spirtual/technological axes.

I almost wanted to footnote Star Wars in the original post because of so many of the aspects you mention.  Its really a great example of what I'm getting at:  Its a great character driven story that incorporates a fable-like past and is fundamentally a morality play simply set in a "futuristic" alternate universe.  The technology is incidental though the setting is key to make the myth compelling.  Star Wars was wildly successful in the movies, etc. and modestly successful in the MMO space precisely because of these elements.  [You can insert your own lengthy discussion regarding SWG here...].

So why haven't game developers been able to successfully recreate that same feeling that most fantasy games seem to evoke in players?

Why aren't we knee deep in Sci-Fi MMOs the way we are with Fantasy? (I think there are probably way more good science fiction writers out there than fantasy--forward flames to /dev/null).

I'd love to see the Sci-Fi MMO game space garner the same attention (and development dollars) as fantasy.  Particularly now that the MMO market has been validated by the success of games like EQ, EQ2 and WoW.

Eve is a great game, but it is not a terribly accessible game.  Not in the way WoW, EQ2 or LotRO is.  Who's developing that 1 million+ subscriber game?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great comment Hallower.  I like past/future spirtual/technological axes.</p>
<p>I almost wanted to footnote Star Wars in the original post because of so many of the aspects you mention.  Its really a great example of what I&#8217;m getting at:  Its a great character driven story that incorporates a fable-like past and is fundamentally a morality play simply set in a &#8220;futuristic&#8221; alternate universe.  The technology is incidental though the setting is key to make the myth compelling.  Star Wars was wildly successful in the movies, etc. and modestly successful in the MMO space precisely because of these elements.  [You can insert your own lengthy discussion regarding SWG here...].</p>
<p>So why haven&#8217;t game developers been able to successfully recreate that same feeling that most fantasy games seem to evoke in players?</p>
<p>Why aren&#8217;t we knee deep in Sci-Fi MMOs the way we are with Fantasy? (I think there are probably way more good science fiction writers out there than fantasy&#8211;forward flames to /dev/null).</p>
<p>I&#8217;d love to see the Sci-Fi MMO game space garner the same attention (and development dollars) as fantasy.  Particularly now that the MMO market has been validated by the success of games like EQ, EQ2 and WoW.</p>
<p>Eve is a great game, but it is not a terribly accessible game.  Not in the way WoW, EQ2 or LotRO is.  Who&#8217;s developing that 1 million+ subscriber game?</p>
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